The Recovered Life Show

[Announcer]
You're listening to The Recovered Life Show, the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon Frank.

[Damon Frank]
And welcome back to The Recovered Life Show. I'm pleased to welcome our guest therapist, Keith Kilborn, to the show. He's a therapist in Petaluma, California, and also a person who practices Tai Chi.

And I'm so glad to have you on the show, Keith, to talk about Tai Chi and how it can help you in your recovery. Well, happy to be here. So great to have this conversation, Keith.

You know, one of the things that I love is that when I interview mental health professionals that are also in recovery and you are in recovery, you know, 33 years you have been doing the deal. And I love to kind of dive into, you know, what did you do? How did you use certain things, right, in your life to help you not only stay sober, Keith, because I think that's one side of it, the physical sobriety, but to really have your best recovered life, right?

Because that's really what it's all about. So I'm so thrilled to talk with you about your whole Tai Chi journey, how it worked. Can we dive into this a little bit?

You know, how did you just be, you know, somebody who's living in Petaluma, doing the sobriety journey, stumble upon Tai Chi?

[Keith Kilburn]
Well, you know, I think I got very lucky, you know, and as a child of the 60s, by the 70s, I was going to graduate school at Sonoma State. And somebody that I knew a little bit was teaching Tai Chi. And, you know, this is like, I don't know, 1974 or something, you know, it's weird, it's lunatic fringe, it's this, you know, what is that weird stuff people are doing?

And why are they moving in slow motion? And, you know, there were so many questions at that point. But something about it appealed to me enough that not only did I, you know, take the class, but I was motivated to practice every day and did.

And I think because right off the bat, I was getting benefits in terms of relaxation and a sense of innate well-being, and these kind of things that at the time didn't always translate into words, but I liked the feeling and so I kept doing it.

[Damon Frank]
You know, I'd love to ask you, because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to this, Keith, and they're saying, what? Okay, I've heard of Tai Chi. What is it?

Is it a martial art? Is it a dance? Is it meditation?

What exactly is Tai Chi? Just to kind of set the stage, because I think a lot of people have misconceptions about actually what it is.

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah. Well, it's funny that what you listed are the three things that we usually say, and it's all of the above. It is a dance.

It is a moving meditation. And what was the other thing you said? Oh, martial arts.

[Damon Frank]
Martial arts.

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah, it does have applicability as a martial art. And, you know, you had raised the question of, so what's different about Tai Chi, say, from other forms of meditation? And well, there's a couple of things.

One is that your eyes are open. And so in addition to cultivating this inner sense of well-being, you're doing it while being aware of your entire surroundings. And that's very different from most forms of meditation, where your eyes are closed.

It's very inward focus. And so to be able to have this peacefulness as you move through the world, maybe in slow motion, but, you know, the meditation and action concept, when you're thinking of it in terms of Tai Chi is, well, you're walking down the street and, hey, this could be doing Tai Chi if you think about it in the right way. And the neuroscience has been quite wonderful in supporting mindfulness practices because focusing on your breathing, which is part of Tai Chi and part of other forms of meditation, we now know that you do that for 15 or 20 minutes, and the limbic area, the emotional area of the brain gets very subdued.

So you're not as emotionally reactive. And the prefrontal cortex is stimulated, which is your thinking, analyzing, being aware, observing, doing all of that, is getting more energy. And that happens from focusing on one's breathing.

It also happens from slow motion movement. So with Tai Chi, you've got two things going that are going to send you to that same place. I love that.

[Damon Frank]
You know, when I first heard about Tai Chi is when I was practicing martial arts, and at that time was not sober, right? And people were talking about, hey, you know, this will really calm you down. This will, this will stop the fast thinking, the constant movement that I had, right?

And you know, and I know for me, personally, alcohol was great, because it was able to, it was, it was allowed me to kind of turn off and allowed me to stop thinking as much overthinking and doing all that stuff. In your recovery journey, how did you incorporate Tai Chi into that? Like, how was that?

Because I know you've mentioned that it was kind of a game changer for you. How did you do that? How did you did you first like, did you start noticing the benefits of it in the recovery process?

Or was it something that you just stumbled upon accidentally?

[Keith Kilburn]
Well, you know, it happened kind of in reverse from a lot of people in that I had been exposed and taking classes in meditation and Tai Chi long before I got sober. And I think it was Stan Groff's wife who talked about, oh, yeah, I had all these spiritual practices, but I was also drinking myself to death. And I eventually had to deal with that aspect of it.

So she's another one I relate to because, you know, she had the spiritual practice. Oh, but I'm also an alcoholic. Oops.

So when I when I did get sober, it's like I say, gosh, I have these practices that make me feel good and almost come in as a replacement for drinking alcohol or doing something else to the mind altering that I have this practice that is very safe and and healthy and also is mind altering and in the way that I'm looking for to be more relaxed, to be more in touch with my innate well-being.

[Damon Frank]
You know what? It's it's interesting because, you know, I think so much of the whole getting sober journey is really about, you know, it's about self-awareness and you're talking about people being really heavily into that spiritual side. And I find I found through just being sober and meeting people like you that are in recovery and just the experience of being sober people that are in recovery are are usually spiritual seekers.

Not everybody, but I find that like when you when you really talk to them, they even before they were sober were kind of seekers. They were they were they were pursuing and trying to access the spiritual journey. And I've heard this more than once of people kind of having that the spiritual journey, creating the self-awareness of I'm drinking myself to death.

I can no longer use drugs. I can't, you know, gamble like this or eat like whatever the that addiction might be. Right.

This this this self-awareness ability. Do you find that Tai Chi helps you with that? Because really at the end of the day, isn't it like as a therapist to as a mental health professional?

Isn't a lot of recovery just self-awareness is just becoming aware of what is actually going on with you?

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah, I think that's a fair characterization self-awareness. And I would also say spiritual awareness, whatever that means, because it, you know, it means a different thing each each individual almost. And so having these these practices going made me I think more open to other forms of spiritual practice as well.

So that what actually got me sober was my involvement with a Native American shaman. And that's not the typical story, you know. But I think the fact that I had these other practices going already made me open to at least meeting her.

And then once I met her going, oh, I think this is the answer to the question I couldn't ask. This is the journey that I need to go on right now. And it was, you know, through that relationship that within a year I got sober and still am.

And so I see the other practices like Tai Chi being in support of that. That it made me at least open enough that I could see the value of another spiritual path.

[Damon Frank]
What do you think, you know, with somebody who's been sober for 33 years, that's a long time, right? What do you think the key has been for you? I mean, obviously, I could tell, you know, just by our conversation, you're very into spirituality, you know, obviously Tai Chi.

I'm sure you also do meditation. What do you think has been the key core that's really helped you stay sober for 33 years?

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah. Daily practice. I mean, I meditate every day.

I do Tai Chi every day at this point, because I'm an old guy with arthritis and the things that old people get. I also do yoga every day. So I have three practices going on a daily basis.

And then in addition to that, I'm still involved as a vision quest guide, which is a whole another kind of launching yourself into the spirit world. And I would say almost an aggressive way. You know, like we're going to go out in the mountains and we're going to sit there and fast and pray and hope that something magical happens.

[Damon Frank]
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[Keith Kilburn]
And most of the time something magical does happen.

[Damon Frank]
You know, I think this whole thing about pursuit, you know, I remember first coming into a 12 step program and hearing this, you know, in the big book saying that the pursuit basically is never going to end. There has to constantly be some sort of spiritual pursuit in order for you to maintain a happy sobriety, right? I know there's a lot of people who are in sobriety that aren't happy.

They're visible, right? Which I don't think is really the answer, right? And I love Tai Chi as, and why I was excited to do this episode is because I love Tai Chi as kind of a gateway into something new, right?

And one of the things I wanted to talk about in this is this whole idea of using Tai Chi to kind of stay in the present, because one of the things that I have seen with people who are constant relapsers are people who have a really hard time maintaining physical sobriety for a period of time. They can never just kind of get into it, right? They never, it's almost like a failure to launch into sobriety.

Typically, a lot of times I see is that they have a really hard time being able to stay in the present. The present is just such a uncomfortable place. And when you see, when you hear these stories of people going out constantly, usually they're going out because they're in the past tense, they have a resentment or their future tripping.

They're never really in the here and now. Do you find that Tai Chi kind of helps that practice with being comfortable with the here and now? Because this is a huge problem for people, especially in early recovery, just being able to be comfortable with where they're at.

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah. Well, I think you're on to something there that it's a focus of awareness that is part of the Tai Chi practice where, because there is a martial arts aspect to it, in martial arts, you better be in the moment or you get smacked. Now, there isn't sparring, so to speak, in Tai Chi, but there's still that idea that you better be totally aware of your environment because you don't know what might be coming at you.

Myself and several people have reported to me that they were in situations that were threatening, perhaps even life threatening. And because of their Tai Chi practice, they were able to just relax and that oftentimes it's our resistance that creates the most problems. If we could just relax and be in the moment, like you say, well, maybe this is not such a bad situation.

Or at least I can make it less bad if I'm actually in present time because, as you say, the future tripping, which creates anxiety, and the past tripping, which creates depression, are big problems in recovery. If we could simply stay in this moment and be taking care of this moment, I think it's also helped me as a grandfather that I really love kids under the age of five. I love going to playgrounds with my grandkids because they are in the moment.

Yeah? And when I'm playing with them, I get to be in the moment. And it's another way of transferring that focused awareness into something that's just fun and games.

[Damon Frank]
You know what? So many people now, Keith, come into recovery. And there's been what I've seen in the last, since I've been in the last three decades, is I've seen a shift towards more mental health into recovery.

I know when I first came in, it was not, I'm going to say not as nice. People were much more direct. People would just, they'd just tell you.

And there wasn't a bigger, at least where the people that I surrounded myself with, there wasn't as much of a mental health discussion. And now, we've done a lot of shows with therapists about people coming in with co-occurring disorders. They maybe have a mood disorder, crippling anxiety, crippling depression, other things.

Yeah, PTSD. And trauma is the big thing now. They're thinking that trauma is linked to a lot of the addiction that's out there.

And I find it interesting now that we're really kind of having, and I think it's great, we're having this bigger mental health discussion. I know I had a crippling anxiety attack. And I remember reading in the big book, the founder of the big book, if anybody's listening to this, and it's not familiar with that, had a crippling depression issue, right?

And he's talking about basically a mood disorder within there. And how do you feel that Tai Chi kind of helps with those two issues? Because there's so many people that come in that have either anxiety or depression, or both of those, right?

And an addiction. How does Tai Chi really help in that practice of kind of knocking down some of those issues with depression and anxiety?

[Keith Kilburn]
Yeah, well, you know, fundamentally, we all just want to feel good. You know, that's why people drink, that's why people use drugs. There's a certain way of wanting to feel.

And that, if that can be created, as I think it is, by something like Tai Chi, then, you know, you've got at least something that's going to cut into those other co-occurring disorders. That it will take the edge off the anxiety, it will take the edge off the depression. And the more that you practice, and it expands out into, I think that, you know, we talked about Tai Chi as dance, which is an art form.

And the artistic expression is one of the things that I think is really an important part of recovery as well. And sometimes that's about, you know, traumatic things in our past. And sometimes it's just about going off into the imaginal realm and having a good time, and being able to do that, you know, not being held back by things within our own psyche that prevent that from happening.

So I think that practices like Tai Chi enable that, make it possible to move more easily into the imaginal realm and just, you know, have some fun, enjoy life.

[Damon Frank]
I love that. I love that. Because that's been something that's really been, that I've really been thinking about, like, you know, everybody has these little goals, sobriety goals for the year, reflections.

And I call them goals, but just reflections on things that I would like to kind of focus on. And for me, for every year for the last couple years, it's like, I want to have more fun. I want to have more fun in my life, right?

And because with being sober, you realize you have the ability to do that. But I think, you know, we've been talking a lot lately, Keith, about people who, you know, they come into recovery, I call it church basement thinking, and they just get trapped in the church basement, right? And thank God they're sober, right?

Like, because you have to have physical sobriety, or none of this is gonna, none of this is really gonna work, right? You're always, I find you're always going to be sliding backwards, two steps forward, five steps back, right? So it's awesome that if you have, you know, physical sobriety, that's good.

But kind of just kind of getting stuck there. It's like, well, you know, I'm afraid to make a move. I'm afraid to do this.

And, you know, and I found with especially these co-occurring disorders, so many times now, it's just a rush to put people on medication, you know, so they could get a foothold that you know, and look at everybody's different. And I think that that's great for some people. And I think it works for some obviously it works, or they wouldn't be doing it all the time.

But I think this ability to be able to use other things to just get kind of a, I look at it like rock climbing, just a grasp, right? Because I knew for me, with sobriety, if I could just get to a place where I could have a little buffer, I could then start working the tools, right? I could then start working the tools.

Same with anxiety. Like, that's how I got over anxiety is I just was able to get enough of a buffer. And you know, using things like Tai Chi and using things like this, I feel kind of gets you out of these jams, that really, maybe your traditional sobriety, you know, practice, you might get out of it sober, but you're not going to get out of it happy.

Right? You're gonna, you're gonna get out of it, right? Is there been a time in your life, like, thinking back, he's like the worst time in your life in recovery.

How did you get out of it using these kind of practices? Or did you?

[Keith Kilburn]
That's, that's a fascinating question. Because, you know, when I think about the worst times in my life, of course, I immediately go to to the period of time before I stopped drinking. And, you know, like, like being depressed for three years, and, you know, not able to get myself out of it.

And I think that that what I came up with around depression is just do something. You know, what gets really bad about depression is the vegetative aspect where where you get so depressed that we're just stuck and, and not there's no movement. And so when I say, you know, don't just sit there, do something.

Well, Tai Chi works very well, because, and better, I think, than sitting meditation, because it's not clear in sitting meditation, whether you're doing something or not. It sort of looks like you're doing nothing. But at least with Tai Chi, it not only looks, but feels like, yeah, I am doing something.

I am in motion. And for the 20 minutes, 30 minutes, however long that I'm in the practice, I'm not depressed. Maybe, you know, afterwards, the depression comes back, but it's not quite as bad as it was.

[Damon Frank]
So if there's somebody listening to this, and they're maybe struggling, they're recovering, and they just really have not been able to get into a meditative practice. They haven't been able to really kind of find anything. What would be your thoughts to them about Tai Chi?

And maybe they've looked into it a little bit, they're a little bit, they're a little apprehensive, because it seems a little woo woo, you know, it might seem a little out there. And they have some apprehension to it. But they know they need something.

In addition to the regular recovery practice, what would be your advice to them about trying Tai Chi?

[Keith Kilburn]
I would actually say, start with Qi Gung. Because they're part of the same practice, basically. When I was taking Tai Chi lessons from this man, Nam Tseng, a number of years ago, he had spent part of his childhood in the Taoist monastery in Taiwan.

So he had a very interesting, different background for most Tai Chi teachers, who was really steeped in the Taoist tradition. And I forgot your question.

[Damon Frank]
No, it's all about if they're apprehensive about doing it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Keith Kilburn]
Okay, so we would do a series of exercises before we got into the Tai Chi form itself. And that was where I first heard the term Qi Gung. We did Qi Gung as warmups for doing Tai Chi.

So now I see that people are teaching Qi Gung on its own, which is fine, which is beautiful. It's like make it accessible. It is more accessible than learning a 37 movement form, or 108 movement form, or an 88 movement form.

Qi Gung is individual exercises. And you can learn four, five, six of them, 10 or 12. And it's a good practice.

And you can do it for a few minutes and get the same kind of benefits that we're talking about with Tai Chi. So that would be my advice. That's the place to start.

And if you really love it, then you'll probably go on and learn in Tai Chi form as well.

[Damon Frank]
You know, I think that's really great advice, I think just to be a pursuer and to try that, you know, to try it out if it works for you. Because like I after this conversation, I'm looking at it as somebody who is a horrible meditator, and the person who teaches me how to meditate says, you can't say that you got to stop saying that. You're not doing it wrong, right?

But like, I'm somebody who is kind of an into action person, right, Keith? So I'm like, I just don't this is very difficult for me. Like being able to pause, very difficult.

I'm somebody who likes movement. Right. So this is something that I see is something that I need to incorporate in 2024 into my practice.

You know, Keith, I have to ask you because you're a very interesting guy, therapist. So you've gone down the whole mental health science side of it, the practitioner side of it. You've had your own personal recovery journey.

Tai Chi, key gong meditation. I have to ask you a closing here. What has been the biggest spiritual lesson that you've learned in your recovery?

I know that's a tough question. But if you're to think about, like, something that you've learned, that has been the big aha moment in your recovery, what would that be?

[Keith Kilburn]
Well, we haven't talked at all about prayer. And in the quest context, prayer is really like, lay it on me. You know, just tell me who I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to do.

And the most dramatic thing that I was led into as a result of that.

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